Let’s Talk Bookish is a weekly meme, hosted by Rukky @ Eternity Books & Dani @ Literary Lion, where we discuss certain topics, share our opinions, and spread the love by visiting each other’s posts. It’s supposed to be posted on Friday, but being on time is hard and it’s better late than never.
This week’s topic is: What makes a book YA?
The prompt this week stems from a tweet made by Samantha Shannon, author of The Priory of the Orange Tree, which is adult, yet suffers from the unfortunate constant mislabeling as YA. Because everyone knows women don’t write sci-fi/fantasy adult books, right? Pfft. Perish the thought.
I sometimes wonder what sort of fantasy a woman has to write to be classified everywhere as Adult: by her publisher, by awards, in bookshops, on GR shelves. I wonder if it's possible.
— Samantha Shannon (@say_shannon) May 2, 2020
In fact, if you read the Twitter thread, you’ll find a lot of well-known female SFF authors talking about their experiences being shoehorned into young adult, even though they’ve been clear that their book is intended for adult audiences.
It seems to be an ongoing battle in publishing that women are routinely relegated to the YA trenches. Which don’t get me wrong, is a great place to be because YA is fabulous … if that’s where you intend to be. If not? It can be downright frustrating. No one likes being told where they have to be.
Before we can properly have this discussion, though, I feel like it’s important that we take a step back and look at exactly what YA is to begin with.
What is YA?
YA is an age category, characterized by books intended for audiences aged 12 – 18. From there, the definition gets really squicky and unclear, because what exactly does that mean?!
Common characteristics of YA novels:
- Protagonists aged 13 – 19.
- Coming of age plots about growing into one’s own.
- A strong focus on relationships and identity.
Basically, YA bridges a gap between children’s fiction (or middle grade) and adult fiction.
Except that the lines between YA and adult are about as clear as mud, because a lot of adults also read YA and older YA readers are practically adults.
Why are female authors relegated to YA?
The biggest problem, likely, is the latent sexism in the publishing industry. I mean, obviously these cute little she-folk are writing for the kids and not really adults, right? Aren’t they adorable, trying to compete with the men-folk? Silly females.
There are so many fabulous articles on this issue, by people much smarter than I am, who have worded it much better than I ever could.
A 2007 article by natassja likened YA to a Venus fly trap, which I thought was an apt comparison. It sucks women in and traps them, regardless of how hard they struggle.
The article also references A/B testing done by female authors. I’ve read several accounts by various authors of doing similar tests. By and large, the results are that manuscripts in SFF simply do better when pitched by male authors. We can speculate why that is all day, but the fact remains that it is, indeed, a thing and has been in publishing for a while now.
Is YA hurt by this downward shift in adult books?
I’ve actually asked this question in a post before: is YA becoming too mature? While it’s true that an astounding number of adults read YA (and goodness knows I’ve encouraged my fair share to), the age category itself is still 13 – 18. Adults aren’t reading YA in order to read adult books, by and large, or they would be reading adult.
The fact remains that 13-year-olds generally don’t read the same content and aren’t on the same maturity level as 16-year-olds, let alone 18-year-olds.
Having a spectrum so broad can lead to questions of how much mature content can be added to YA books? I’ve certainly noticed YA getting more graphic, in particular when it comes to sex. My biggest concern in this regard is that parents and librarians may not know that a certain book has mature content, which means, by virtue of its age category, it may be accessible to younger YA readers. As both a parent and a library clerk, this poses a problem, because if kids often read up (which tends to be accepted as a concept in general), then not everyone will want their 10-, 11-, or 12-year-old exposed to graphic sex. Though, if this principle is also true, then wouldn’t it also follow suit that the older YA readers who would be ready for more graphic books would start seeking out adult books? Which leads me to wonder who are these more mature books for?
So what makes a book YA versus adult?
Ehhh … a coin toss? I don’t know. It probably doesn’t surprise you to know that I have exactly none of the answers. Because answers are expensive and I spend all my money on books, okay?
Take, for instance, Nevernight by Jay Kristoff, which has a younger protagonist, is very coming of age, but deals with a lot of gore and sex, but it’s adult (even though it’s listed as YA on Goodreads). It also happens to be written by a male author, who does write a lot of YA books. Compare that to Furyborn by Claire Legrand, whose protagonist is a little bit older and which contains way more graphic sex scenes (and the sequel essentially includes a rape scene), yet it’s marketed as YA. It also happens to be by a female author.
Why I love reading YA
I get asked this question a lot, especially since there still seems to be a stigma around adults reading YA, because you shouldn’t “read down,” like that’s a thing. The main reason I love YA is because sex scenes bore me, and I love the way YA tends to focus on deep emotions and questions of identity. Because you know what? It may surprise you to know (or not) that even though I’m going to be 30 this year, I still have no idea who I am or who I want to be. Adulting is hard. I’m still at a time in my life when I can resonate with the struggles YA books are about.
There also tends to be more whimsy and fun in middle grade, especially, but also in young adult, the sort that seems hard to find in adult books. Almost like when you grow up you have your whimsy sucked out of you. If that’s the case … shhh, don’t tell anyone, because I’d still love to visit any of these worlds. I don’t want my adult card revoked, just in case I actually need it one day. You understand.
I definitely feel for female authors, and I think that’s why lots of them go with initials, maybe to level the playing field, although they shouldn’t have to😡 Usually you can tell whether a book is marketed as YA or adult by the price of the hardcover, or at least that’s what I’ve noticed over the years. (YA priced around $17/$18 and adult in the $20s). But you can’t stop booksellers from putting adult books on YA shelves, I guess!
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That’s definitely true. One of the first bits of advice I got when I wanted to become a published author was to either use initials or go by Sam, because then no one would be able to tell my gender. Bearing in mind, I was, like, 18 at the time, and that was one of my first introductions to the idea of publishing, so yeah, that’s definitely a thing.
Unfortunately, you can’t, and some just don’t know or don’t pay attention! I know that there are definitely times where I’ve had to bring a book back to our cataloger at the library because it was shelved as YA when it wasn’t. Mixed messages from the publishing world sometimes make it hard.
Really enjoyed reading this – so many well-expressed ideas! 100% agree with you as to why you still read YA, too – I’ll be 30 next year and it’s still my favourite 😊 all the heart of reading adult books with none of the duller realities and therefore twice the escapism!
Thanks! I’ve noticed more adults reading YA, and I think it’s fabulous … as long as publishers remember *who* the YA category is actually for. Especially since I’m not there for adulty books. Like you said, I want all the escapism!
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Absolutely looooved this post! I live for these types of posts! Thank you!
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Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much for this! I definitely agree with you. There are a lot more graphic scenes in YA than before! It annoys me too that books from female authors especially are perceived to be YA when they are actually adult books. If I remember correctly V.E. Shwab also talked about this on Twitter. Anyway, I also love YA because it is more focused on emotions than adult books.
I think it’s especially hard when authors do write some YA and also adult. I think Schwab definitely falls in that category. From a marketing standpoint, I can see wanting to go with YA, but if a book’s meant for adults, it’s meant for adults, yo!
Great discussion post! Because the lines are so muddy, I wonder why publisher won’t listen more to the authors. If an author says that their book was inteded for adults, why not listen to them? Nevertheless, I’m 26 and I love to read YA 😊
Yeah there are definitely some adult books that ‘lean YA’ and YA books that I’m surprised are actually YA…it happens because it’s a messy line between them. My defining thing for YA is a young protag with a theme of self-discovery. That theme is why I read so much YA still! It’s annoying that things don’t always get classified correctly, especially when it’s very obvious where it should be shelved, and yet there are those few books that really do straddle the line.
I agree that it’s really hard to tell where a book “belongs” sometimes, but then again, the delineation between teenager and adult in people is as clear as mud, too, so that’s understandable. That’s also why I read YA! It’s a theme I hope I never grow out of loving. 😉
I definitely think that YA is starting to tilt to “too mature” on the scale simply because books that SHOULD be under the adult category are getting shoved into the YA category for no good reason. I was reading Kingdom of Ash last month and, while I enjoyed it, I thought – should a fourteen year old be reading all these drawn out sex scenes? There’s no good rating system for books like there is for films or video games and if you can’t trust YA content to be appropriate for the age it’s marketed for then what CAN you trust?
Goodreads has a huge problem with misclassifying books under the YA genre tbh. I love YA and I also love Adult, I just wish the line between the two was clearer.
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I’ve actually never read that series, but I hear it come up A LOT in this discussion, and it’s certainly not alone. The problem is that yes, these are topics that I think mid- to older teens can/should read about (to some extent, depending on individual people), but I feel like they can seek them out themselves from adult if that’s what they’re ready for.
I don’t see it ever happening, but I think a rating system for YA books would be really neat. Certainly a good way to differentiate books for an age group that is soooo vast on the maturity scale.
You bring up a lot of great points. I totally agree with you on the maturity level. I discussed that very issue with a friend (who is older than me) who reads a LOT of YA too, and she didn’t have a problem with the graphic sex because she liked “YA that leaned into what it was”. She also didn’t have a problem with her 12 year old reading such stuff. But I still feel the graphic sex is a clear indicator it’s written for adult readers of YA. While sex in YA is understandable, and should be there to a certain extent, it shouldn’t be so graphic it boarders on erotica (like Sarah J. Maas).
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I don’t mind graphic sex in general in books. It’s not something I search out, but hey, it’s a thing in life. But I agree that if it involves graphic sex, it’s obviously meant for the 18+ crowd, in general. I mean, as a parent, you know what your kid can handle, and if she thinks it’s fine or right for her kid, I have no problem with that. But I deal with kids all the time coming into the library, and I can tell you that the majority of 12-year-olds (at least around here) are NOT ready for that, nor are they mature enough to process what’s actually going on. I don’t mind “vague” sex, but it’s generally, like you said, the erotica that I feel like isn’t really a YA thing.
That’s a great post, Sammie. I think I have read a post about this topic earlier and have a few thoughts.
First of all, I was a little surprised to see in what age category you are putting YA. I would have started the ageline somewhere at 14-15 which now makes me think about the maturity of teenagers nowaday, how they seem to be older at a younger age and what I was reading at that age. (Then I remembered that I used to steal psychothrillers from my mum’s bookshelf at age 11 and will be proceeding to shut my mouth.)
I think, I THINK the problem with the whole thing is, that when we are talking YA we are talking mostly fantasy. When you are thinking adult fantasy, then what are you thinking about? The first thing that comes to my mind is ogers and elves and dwarfs. Age old feuds, bloody battles, lost limbs, complicated language and stuff that stretches on over pages and pages. It’s often just too real. I think Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, pretty much everything by Bernhard Hennen, etc… High Fantasy, basically. I was never really into High Fantasy because in my mind it’s always drawn-out lore and boring and more about the world than I ever need to know and less about the characters.
YA on the other hand is mostly character driven, fast-paced and kinda fantastical . And while you can have beautifully built worlds, I have yet to find one where the character is standing in the shadows of the world itself.
So, if you are reading it like that, which one would you choose? I think it’s an easy marketing choice and adult fantasy has just a lot of stigmata on it. YA is more popular and easier to sell. The lines also blurr so easy that it might hard to pick the age-group a new, not-yet-published book has to fall into as well. When in doubt, YA.
I feel like I’m waaaay off topic now but at the heart of it all, I think the problem is marketing as well as old prejudices concering the adult fantasy genre. I don’t even know about YA contemporary. I was never into that genre at that age and still aren’t. I went from pony books straight to adult fiction, so I probably don’t even know what appropriate. Don’t listen to me, Sammie. 🙈
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If you’re considering YA closer to 15, that might make sense. But it’s generally seen as 13+ from definitions I’ve seen, and if kids read up, that means kids as young as 10 could be reading YA.
That’s so true, that because my wheelhouse is fantasy that tends to be what I think in when I write my posts. I tend to think of high fantasy when I think of adult fantasy, too, but also more violence and more sexually explicit scenes wouldn’t surprise me in there.
From a marketing perspective, I understand why a publisher might want to push it into YA. Especially since YA is a hugely popular age group at this point for both young adults AND adults, so you’re hitting the best of both worlds. But still. If an author says it’s adult and it’s accepted under that assumption, don’t push it as YA. =/
Bwahaha, I don’t know, either. I have to totally remove my experience from it, because like you said, I went from horse books and Anirmoprhs to The Sea Wolf. xD I am NOT a reliable source for how young readers work lol.